Opinion

Transcript of John McCain's roundtable discussion with Star editors

This is a transcript of an interview Tuesday with U.S. Sen. John McCain, the Arizona Republican, by members of the editorial board and news staff of the Arizona Daily Star.

OPENING REMARKS

On immigration:

Immigration is broken. Our borders are not controlled so it is a national security issue. We have sent about 20 additional billion dollars for immigration enforcement, and illegal immigration is up rather than down so we obviously have other aspects of the equation. One is that we have to have a guest worker program to do work that Americans won't do. Sen. Kennedy (Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.) and I have a proposal - if a job is open and it's not taken by an American worker then a person can obtain a visa which is tamper- proof, come in and do that job in the United States. Then if they're out of a job more than 60 days, they have to go back the country they came from. But they can move from one job to another. The other aspect of it that is controversial is that 11 million people have already come here and are here illegally. It is pure fantasy to think that we are going to take 11 million people and send them back to the country they came from. Amnesty was tried once in the 1980s, and it didn't work. So we need to make sure that people who have broken our laws by entering our country illegally pay a price for that - we need a $2,000 fine plus having to work for six years before being eligible for green card status. And then it would probably take another five years after that to be able to go for citizenship. I read the dictionary on occasion and the word "amnesty" does not fit into the proposal that Sen. Kennedy and I have, even though many claim that it does. It is a severe and significant penalty for having broken our laws and come into our country. The issue, obviously, is rising in visibility. I understand the frustration that has caused the governor and the governor of New Mexico to take the action that they have. I also understand why we have people like the Minutemen who feel the frustration that many of our citizens feel when our health care costs skyrocket, our wildlife refuges are destroyed, and we have no control of our borders. I know the Bush administration is getting much more involved because I've had two visitations in July at the White House with Sen. Kennedy as we discussed the issue. I hope that at least in the Senate that we can take up this issue in the fall. On Iraq

Serious mistakes have been made for which we've paid a heavy price in American blood and treasure - primarily by not getting control in Iraq after initial military success, allowing looting, not having more American troops on the ground, not understanding the people that we have just defeated. We cannot afford to lose. We must prevail. We are making halting progress in the formation of a constitution. The Sunnis - how they play in this equation now is still not clear since they are apparently in opposition to the constitution. We need to try to meet these guidelines of Oct. 15 and Dec. 15 if we possibly can for approval of the constitution. Setting a date certain for withdrawal from Iraq would be a recipe for disaster because our enemies would then just lie low until the Americans left. We know the Iraqis cannot control the security situation. The formula must be that we train and equip Iraqis so they can take on more of their security responsibilities in a supplemental fashion to American troops that are there, and they eventually take over those duties and then eventually over time Americans can withdraw. I have said for years it's going to be long, it's going to be hard, it's going to be tough. Whether you supported the invasion of Iraq or not, whether in hindsight we should have gone or not, I respect those personal opinions. And I still think we did the right thing. But if we leave now, we will establish Iraq as a factionalized nation, a hotbed of Muslim extremism, and they will follow us wherever we go. When we lost in Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh and his friends didn't want to follow us to the United States. These people do. On global warming

In Alaska, the seal, sea lion sea otter population is down by 80 percent. In the Yukon, half of their spruce trees are dying from an attack of the spruce beetle because they have not had a cold enough winter to kill the larva. The native Alaskan tribes keep oral history that is handed down to them for generations, through thousands of years, and they've never seen anything like this. Alaskan villages, because of melting permafrost, are toppling into the ocean. Erosion is incredibly severe, again because of the melting of the permafrost. The poles are a miner's canary of climate change - the atmosphere and the ozone layer at the poles. Whether we act or not is just a matter of time. Whether act in time so that our kids and our grandkids don't pay a huge price is still unknown. What's the answer? Among other things, the cap-and-trade that Lieberman (Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn.) and I proposed, plus nuclear power, plus a new Kyoto treaty. The United States' price for any treaty is the inclusion of India and China. The two emerging industrial nations would have to be part of any effort that would be successful in order to reduce the emission of greenhouse gases. Arizona Daily Star: The White House is building an independent coalition of business interests nationwide to support comprehensive immigration reform. Is this a welcome development from your point of view and what version of reform do you expect they're going to back? McCain: I think it's welcome, of course. I don't know why you have to pay money to do good for America but that seems to be the way we work in Washington. I think its very good to get the business community on board. I've had numerous conversations with the U.S. Chamber and they're already on board with our bill. There's a debate going on in the administration right now over the disposition of the 11 million who are already here. And I don't think that's been decided within the administration. But I can tell you this: Like Social Security, if it's going to succeed, it's got to have bipartisan support. And I know of no Democrat today who could support sending people back to the country that they came from. So I think that Kennedy's and my proposal would over time probably emerge with modifications. Daily Star: What's the prognosis in 2005 for some version of comprehensive reform? McCain: Well, with the White House's renewed and vigorous involvement, I have some optimism that we will take it up on the floor of the Senate. I'm not positive, but I don't think it will come up in the House. But in the Senate, at least, I think we'll begin the debate. Daily Star: Does that put it into the next election cycle, and is that a positive or a negative? McCain: I think anything that's in '06 puts it in the election cycle. But having said that, I keep seeing polling data that the majority of Americans want a reasonable answer to this. They want a guest worker program. They want to have some humane addressing of the people who already are here. The outlines are there. The extremes obviously have much more influence in Washington than they used to. But on this issue, with the president's leadership - look, first of all, the president is extremely familiar with this issue and he's generally been keeping with what I think is a very moderate approach. Daily Star: Do you think recent Pew Center polling showing that in Mexico, 40 percent or more want to move to the United States - does that concern you? Do you think that will influence this legislation? McCain: I'm surprised it's not 80 percent. Surely, if you went around the world to most countries that are outside of Europe, most of them would say they'd love to come here. A lot of them try. That argues for a better government and a better economy in Mexico. And that's why part of this equation in the long run may be some kind of programs which would aid the Mexican economy because it's in our interests to do so. There are towns and villages in Mexico today that are devoid of young men. They've all gone so they can feed themselves and their families. It's in our interests to see a better Mexican economy. Having said that, it's in the Mexicans' interest to have a much better government. And less corruption. And more opportunity. Some of us have been a bit disappointed in the Fox administration that we didn't get more. The Fox administration will tell you they're disappointed that we didn't act on immigration. Daily Star: You said you understand the frustration of Gov. (Janet) Napolitano. Did she do the right thing in declaring a state of emergency on the border. McCain: She declares a state of emergency when we have a forest fire. Why not? Daily Star: That's an example of Arizonans stepping in, sometimes awkwardly, to fill a vacuum in Washington on immigration. Other examples are the Prop. 200 vote and the Minuteman effort. What advice do you have for us as we wait for action in Washington? McCain: Keep after them. Keep getting attention. That's the only reason why we act. Keep it up. Keep it up. Daily Star: How sure are you about the administration's commitment to this? There was a hearing you attended recently where the secretary of homeland (security) and another administration official were supposed to attend and they didn't at the last minute. McCain: Let me tell you, I proposed an amendment to double the number of beds in detention facilities - double them. Guess who voted it down? The United States Senate. I proposed to add another amendment to increase the number of Border Patrol. Guess who voted it down? The United States Senate. It's fun to blame all on the administration. Where were the senators from New Mexico? Where were the senators from Texas? We know what's happening now. People come here who are not from Mexico. We have no place to put them. We give them a notice to show up in court. And off they go to Chicago or Milwaukee or wherever the hell it is. You need more detention beds, right? It's the Senate that voted it down. The House and Senate can act. It's fun to blame the administration. I do it all the time. But the fact is it's a congressional problem, too. We can vote a quarter of a billion dollars for a bridge to nowhere in Alaska, going from a town of 80 people to a deserted island. But we can't double the number of detention beds for people who come here illegally from Brazil. Daily Star: That points to the divide within the Republican Party over this ... McCain: The Democratic Party. The Democratic Party. Daily Star: Well, Republicans control the Senate, the House, the White House. Why, someone from Arizona might ask, can't you get together and do something about this? McCain: I don't know. It's because they don't have it as a high enough priority, obviously. Their priorities are screwed up, that's why. They'd rather build a museum in some obscure town in someone's congressional district than work on enforcing our border. Daily Star: Could I ask about the lack of pork in the transportation bill for Arizona? McCain: There's quite a bit. Daily Star: Depending on your perspective I guess. Is that now a way to get votes, moreso than bringing home the bacon, or is it just the right thing to do? McCain: I've been in Congress since 1983. I've always done what I think is right. And I'm very grateful to have won election with 77 percent of the vote. I'll do what I think is right. And if you think that I'm going to get into some kind of pork barrel contest, then you've got the wrong guy. I've always said the same thing. And a lot of the people I've talked to in Arizona say, "I'm proud that you stand up and do th right thing." Daily Star: How about energy policy? With all the evidence, melting glaciers and spruce forests dying, isn't it clear that it's time to move away from oil in a major way? What's being done and what do you want to do? McCain: Oil companies' profits are at an all-time high and we subsidize the hell out of them in this last so-called energy bill. I think most experts said that the energy bill had some good things but was largely ineffective in moving us toward energy independence. I'll tell you what's going to move us toward energy independence is when the price of oil continues to go up. That's what's going to move us. And it's going to move us to nuclear power, I think. It was a bad bill. It did have some good things in it - encouragement for solar, encouragement for wind, biomass. In my view it could have been a hell of a lot better. Daily Star: There's something you worked on - the San Pedro River in Southeast Arizona. The river dried up, there's a concern about building there. A lot of people there believe we need to augment the river the way we did here with the CAP, 40 years ago. Are you going to be willing to support that and get the money? McCain: The reason why we set up the partnership was so we could get the best possible information and recommendations. They haven't come up with those recommendations yet so it would be dealing with a hypothetical situation. But all of us were alarmed that the river was drying up. It's what we worried about when we set up the San Pedro partnership. Which, by the way, was a new innovation in water policy and the bill for the Yavapai Land Exchange we're setting up a similar partnership because of the criticality of water up in that part of Arizona. So I would wait to listen to whatever recommendations they might have, then figure out what the cost is and what needs to be done. But for the river to dry up would be, I think, a natural disaster of incredible proportion. So I would hear what the recommendations are and try to implement them. I think we've got the best minds possible as part of that partnership. Daily Star: I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on whether senior military Department of Defense officials have been held sufficiently accountable for prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere. Are you in favor of Senate hearings to look at that issue, and how confident are you about the military's ability to investigate itself in these kinds of situations? McCain: We have had hearings and we will have more hearings in the Armed Services Committee. No, not enough people have been accountable. Example: In the Abu Ghraib scandal, we received information that those prisoners were moved around the Abu Ghraib facility. Now, guards don't have the authority to move people around prisons. That was a year and a half ago and the CIA inspector general is doing an investigation. I asked about that investigation and it's still not complete. I'm sure it's a very complex issue, but ... Daily Star: One of the figures mentioned in a number of the Abu Ghraib reports, Maj. General Barbara Fast, is running the military intelligence school (at Fort Huachuca). Was that a good move by the Army to put her in place there when there are concerns ... McCain: She was investigated and she was cleared. By the way, on the defense authorization bill, I have an amendment that says all interrogation techniques will abide by the Army field manual. The administration opposes that amendment. We'll see how it goes. Daily Star: You said you think we need more troops in Iraq to finish the job. At the same time, hitting recruitment goals is up and down. Do you think we'll need to consider a draft before we're out of Iraq? McCain: No, I don't. There's two reasons why people join the military. One is patriotism, and thank God there's a lot of that, and there's also the rewards for doing so. For not the first time in our history, we're going to have to make inducements more attractive for young Americans to join the military - whether it be increases in pay, or education benefits, or other incentives. In the 1970s and '80s, we experienced an exodus of military pilots from the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force because the airlines were hiring and they were paying huge amounts of money. So what did we do? We matched the airlines or we made the increases in pay or bonuses so attractive we increased retention of pilots. We appeal to their patriotism and we appeal to their pocketbooks. That's what we're going to have to do in recruiting. We're going to have to raise the incentives for service in the military - particularly the Army and the Marine Corps. The Air Force and the Navy aren't having problems. The real crunch is in the Guard and the Reserves. They're going to have very significant difficulty because neither were really designed to do the kinds of things they're doing today. We just need a larger Army and Marine Corps. Right now the Iranians, in the view of some experts, are about to embark on a nuclear weaponized program. The North Koreans are still intransigent about theirs. There's a number of problems throughout the world. And many experts believe it would be very difficult to handle another conflict militarily. I agree with that assessment, by the way. So we need a larger military. Why the reluctance on the part of the Pentagon? Everybody asks me that. The most expensive part of a national defense budget is personnel when you have an all-volunteer force, both now and in the future. And so there's a great focus, some of it understandable, in the Pentagon to transition from a Cold War military to a military challenges that we face today. That's very expensive. And they know that if you increase the size personnel-wise that you'll take money from the transition. That's what I'm told is the thinking in the Pentagon. Now, public statements by the secretary of defense are that the ground commanders haven't asked for them. Well, it's not up to commanders on the ground to make the assessment. It's up to the overall commanders to make the assessment. I never in my life have had a colonel, a general, a major or a sergeant major say they need help. Daily Star: You have said you believe it would be disaster to set a deadline for getting out of Iraq, despite what leaders including Chuck Hagel (Republican senator from Nebraska) have said recently. At whatever point we leave Iraq, do you think we're going to have to tolerate a certain level of insurgency there or do we wipe it out before we leave? McCain: I don't know if you can completely wipe it out. We haven't wiped out the terrorist attacks in the United States. You'd have to reduce it to a point where it would be dramatically different than today. I was on Fox I guess a couple of weeks ago. That's when all this chatter was going on about withdrawing troops. And I said that the day I can land at the airport in Baghdad and ride in an unarmed car to the Green Zone is the day that I'd like to talk about withdrawing troops. The key to it is not so much troop presence. People get it wrong when they say we've got to get them out of there. Nobody says we've get to get our troops out of South Korea because Americans aren't dying in South Korea. The key to it is getting the casualties down. We've got troops stationed everywhere in the world, every continent certainly. I don't see demonstrations saying get our troops out of South Korea. Or Germany. Or wherever. Daily Star: You've rejected the analogy to Vietnam in the past yet it keeps coming up, including by someone you know and respect - Chuck Hagel. What's wrong with the analogy now? McCain: There's an analogy in that public support is eroding. I don't think you can deny that. Polls show that there is erosion of public support for the conflict in Iraq. In Vietnam, the Vietnamese people had a national hero. His name was Ho Chi Minh. They did not have a legitimate government in Saigon that ever gained the respect of the Vietnamese people. There were revolving generals. The Viet Cong and the NVA (North Vietnamese Army) were very respectful of the people. This group of people, they kill kids. They kill women. They kill anybody. They're evil. They're really evil. We've got problems with insurgents coming through Syria. But everything that the Vietnamese got was supplied by China and Russia during the Vietnam conflict and it made a huge difference. When we lost in Vietnam, Ho Chi Minh and his friends didn't want to come after us. We lose in Iraq, they'll come after us. Because they're dedicated. Because they're radical. Maybe they weren't under Saddam Hussein. I'd be glad to have that discussion with you. But anybody who takes over in Iraq after we left would be radical Muslim extremists. Daily Star: We seem to be in a situation where we can't leave, we can't stay. Is this any position ... McCain: Of course we can stay. Of course we can stay. Of course we can stay. Daily Star: At what cost? McCain: A heavy cost. We've made mistakes, $300 billion so far. Mr. Wolfowitz (former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz), I believe, early on said that we could pay for the costs with Iraqi oil revenues, if I recall that statement. Daily Star: Why does that give you confidence that these are the same people that can execute this war? McCain: Because we cannot afford to lose. I'd be glad to have a debate with you but we cannot afford to lose. I debate this all the time. I'd be glad to have another one with you. But the fact is we cannot afford to lose. We must win. We must prevail. And it may require additional service and sacrifice, tragically. But with this president, we will not leave. And Congress certainly won't force him to. Look, there's divisions among the Democrats. You've mentioned Chuck Hagel's name 25 times today. You've got Feingold (Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wisc.) calling for a withdrawal. You've got Clinton, Biden (Sens. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., and Joseph Biden, D-Del.) and others on the Democrat side are saying exactly what I'm saying. The majority of Americans still say we should stay the course. Daily Star: What does victory look like? McCain: A functioning Iraqi government with control of the situation, suppressing the insurgency to the point where people can lead fundamentally normal lives. We don't lead normal lives after Sept. 11. Daily Star: When do you think that will happen? McCain: I don't know. It depends on what we do. If we get more troops over there and do a better job of training the Iraqis. If we are able to apply pressure on Syrians to enforce their border. Most of the suicide bombers now are not Iraqis. This isn't some kind of immutable force that this conflict is on. It depends a lot on what we do and how we do it. Here's the problem with the troop thing: Why do we keep hearing the same names over again? Ramadi, Fallujah, Mosul. Other cities. We go in, we take control, and because we don't have enough troops, we have to leave, and then we have a problem again. After the initial successes, there was no insurgency in Fallujah. And then because we didn't have enough troops they built up this sanctuary there that was going out of Fallujah into other cities. That battle of Fallujah cost us 86 young Marines killed and a thousand wounded. And I mean seriously wounded. That was a huge battle. Guess where we're having problems again? Fallujah. This is the problem of not having enough troops to control the situation. Now, if the Iraqis are trained up and assume more and more of these responsibilities, then the casualties will go down. And the pressure will be alleviated. Daily Star: Our concern for democracy notwithstanding, isn't the major concern that Iraq sits on a huge amount of oil? Isn't it time we acknowledge that publicly? McCain: No, no, no, no, no. Right now, to restore the infrastructure of the oil industry in Iraq would have a tab of a couple billion dollars at least. We're having trouble getting oil supplies to maintain the level of energy of the Saddam era. It's antiquated, it's broken, then you have all these insurgent attacks on the pipeline. From a pure practical standpoint, get out and let the other guys fix it, if we were just looking at oil. I refuse to believe that the United States of America went into Iraq because of oil. I didn't believe it then. I don't believe it now. Look, every nation in the world, not just the United States - intelligence agencies had the firm belief that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The French intelligence agency. The Germans. The Israelis. Every intelligence agency in the world said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. It was a colossal intelligence failure, but it wasn't unique to the United States of America. So this idea that the United States had this plot to get Iraq oil, why did the French then say Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction? Because they were in collusion with us? No. The second thing is the sanctions from the post-Iraq War were weren't holding. There were huge scandals. We're finding out about those scandals right now. The oil for food program, leaking all the way to the family of the secretary-general of the United Nations. Now, Saddam Hussein was the only, I repeat, only dictator who had acquired and used weapons of mass destruction. Twice. Only man in the world. Not Kim Jung Il, not anybody. There's no doubt in my mind that if the sanctions had gone away, and he been able to act with impunity, he would have acquired and used weapons of mass destruction. He even had his own generals convinced he had weapons of mass destruction. With all due respect, and I respect everyone's opinion, to say that we went there for oil, that's just not - people said that's why we went there the first time. The reason we went there the first time was because he invaded Kuwait. Daily Star: With your bid for the presidency in mind for 2006, don't you think your moderate, pragmatic positions on global warming and immigration - don't you think you risk alienating the Limbaughs and the cultural conservatives that you might need in that race? McCain: Well, I've already alienated them. You have to do what's right, you have to do what you believe in. Every time I've deviated from that belief or standard of practice I've paid the price. Every time I've done the right thing, things have worked out. I don't have to be president of the United States. I don't have to run for president again. I've had a very happy life. I've had a wonderful and full life. But for me to pander to somebody, or somehow say you've got to please this group of people, I can't do it. Second of all, I'd point out to you that whatever polls are worth, and it's not much three years prior to a general election, who are the two most popular Republicans in the Republican Party? Giuliani (former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani) and me. Giuliani's pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-gay marriage. I will also admit that a lot of it is name ID. I have very strong support even among Christian conservatives. Are there people who not only don't like me but attack me? Absolutely there will be. But as long as I have strong support from most of the Republican Party, then running is a viable option. Daily Star: Does that mean you're running? McCain: Well, I won't announce that until 2006, but I'll come here first. Daily Star: Senator, the last time an Arizona Republican ran for president - present company excepted - Washington was a very different place. It was a place where Barry Goldwater (the late Arizona Republican) and Frank Church (the late Idaho Democrat) could have discussions ... McCain: George McGovern (South Dakota Democrat) was his best friend, yeah. Daily Star: It's changed a bit. Why would you want to be president? McCain: Because we are in a time of great challenge. This war on terror is a new era in the history of the world, not just the United States of America. We are facing an implacable enemy that has become far more complicated than we ever thought. These guys in London may have been four people in a bull session, they might have decided they were just sick and tired of being sick and tired and said, "Let's go blow up some subways." Look, I have not and will not decide until after 2006 - there's just no point in it - but my ego is sufficient to say that I think I have the background and experiences to take on these challenges. Again, though, whether I want to do it, whether it's worth it, what the mood of the Republican Party and the country is at that time, what the economy is. It's an assessment of all of these factors. Daily Star: It sounds like your motivation - is it fair to say that it is largely to protect America? McCain: Yeah, but I think we need to reform the institutions of government. We need to keep campaign finance reform going. We need to reform Social Security. We need to reform Medicare. We need to reform immigration. There's a broad variety of domestic challenges. The head of the GAO, Mr. Walker, has said the unfunded liabilities are in the X trillions and they're uncontrollable. They're entitlements. They're health care costs, Social Security's going broke. The number one issue and the reason why George Bush was re-elected is that the war on terror is a transcendent issue. But there are enormous domestic challenges. Preservation, clean air, global warming, what's happening to the West now? Are we losing the pristine beauty that people like Teddy Roosevelt handed down to us? But the transcendent issue until it's won and it won't be in anybody's lifetime in this room is the war on terror because that's the direct threat to our very way of life. But our very way of life can go broke unless we get these unfunded liabilities under control. We've got to reform Social Security. Yes, the president failed in his attempt. But the issue's not going away. Still, there's no American worker today who will have the benefit that a present day retiree will have. We're going to have to address it. Health care costs are skyrocketing. They're just totally out of control. And the spending practices of Congress are obscene, and that's a betrayal of the principles of the Republican Party. Daily Star: Should intelligent design be taught in schools? McCain: I think that there has to be all points of view presented. But they've got to be thoroughly presented. So to say that you can only teach one line of thinking I don't think is - or one belief on how people and the world was created - I think there's nothing wrong with teaching different schools of thought. Daily Star: Does it belong in science? McCain: There's enough scientists that believe it does. I'm not a scientist. This is something that I think all points of view should be presented. Daily Star: Back to the border. The trash is piling up everywhere now. The county had to go to the Indian tribes to get a grant after the federal government turned them down. It isn't just the trash issue. You've got the prisons, health care. Is it possible that there will be more money to help us with our woes here? McCain: There will be money, but it's not enough. What I mentioned earlier - the wildlife refuges being destroyed, the Tohono O'odham Nation being destroyed. The ranches being destroyed. Trash is one of the means of destruction. It is a national emergency and not a state emergency. But I feel a little strange because I've been saying it for years. It just gets worse. It just gets worse. Again, I would repeat what I said at the beginning: If you think that only border enforcement is the answer, then you haven't been to Israel. Israelis built walls. They built walls all the way across the division between them and the Palestinians. People still get through and blow themselves up. You have to address the root causes of the problem if you're going to solve the border problem. But that doesn't mean you ignore the border, and this administration and previous administrations have neglected border enforcement. That's why we are faced with the problems we are. And yes, we deserve full reimbursement for health care costs, law enforcement costs. Are we going to get it? No. But we're going to get some. Daily Star: Do you suppose the strategic oil reserve should be opened up at $3 or $4 or $5 a gallon? McCain: It would be OK with me. It would probably be a week's worth. It wouldn't really address the problem but it would be OK with me. I'm not an expert on oil prices. I cannot predict. But I am knowledgeable enough to know that we've got India and China, two developing industrial nations, and they're going to suck up a lot of the world's oil reserves. Why do you think I met our friend that's the head of Phelps Dodge? Why is the price of copper at an all- time high? The Chinese are buying every scrap of copper that's available. Supply and demand. Daily Star: I was wondering how you feel about federal funding for No Child Left Behind. McCain: I'm all for it. I'm also for more rigid enforcement of it at the state and local level instead of trying to avoid it. "Don't make us comply with this, don't make us comply with that, we can't comply with this provision because, we can't comply with that provision." Get tough, get tough. If you want more money then comply with the law. Daily Star: So Connecticut did not do the right thing by challenging this in court? McCain: They don't have a snowball's chance in Gila Bend, Arizona, to win. Daily Star: A new study from Columbia University said drugs are up in high school 40 percent. I wanted to know where you think prevention starts. McCain: I think the president was right the other day when he identified meth as a national challenge. I think it's a huge thing. I think that it's a terrible scourge. I'm not discounting crack cocaine and all that. But meth is so easy. It's so easy to acquire. So I think it's a huge problem. And I think it's a casualty of the war on terror because so much of our effort and resources have been diverted. I ran into a group of Coast Guard guys a couple of days ago in Oregon and I asked, "How much time do you spend on drugs?" And they said none. Before the war on terror, that was one of the major missions of the Coast Guard. I'm not saying that we should go back and divert our attention away from the war on terror to drugs, but I think we ought to at least start paying more attention to the problem. Daily Star: Can we afford both a war on terror and a war on drugs? McCain: If we value our children, we better. We're not a poor country. Daily Star: Is there a military solution to the war on terror? McCain: It's a multifront war and one of them obviously that has to happen and happen soon is moderate Muslims have to speak up. Suicide bombing is a violation of the teaching of the Quran. The Quran specifically prohibits taking one's own life in order to take another, OK? Moderate Muslim communities in America and the world have to speak up and speak up forcefully and declare fatwahs against this gross violation of one of the most peaceful religions that exists, along with Judeo-Christian religions as well. There are parts of Paris, I'm told, that police don't go into, that are populated by people from North Africa. Don't tell me that isn't a breeding ground. And we've also got to have the Saudis do a lot more about the funding of the madrassas. Daily Star: One last question on immigration, since you're here in Tucson. Two arguments against your bill by Tancredo (U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo.) and others are that guest workers won't go home and that cheap labor suppresses technological advancement. What do you think about that? McCain: I think that if people came here and also had inducements to go home, like the ability to set up health care accounts and retirement accounts and other things in the countries from which they came - as for suppressing technological advancement, I have not seen that happening. I would also argue that if someone comes here illegally, they live in the shadows. They're exploited, sometimes abused, many times mistreated. They do not have the protection of our laws and our agencies of government. And to inflict that kind of cruelty on a group of people is a direct violation of everything the United States of America stands for. I will argue that until we give these people some kind of legal status, every once in a while you're going to have some guy open a horse trailer and find eight people crammed inside. And you're going to find more drop houses. And you're going to find the sexual exploitation and mistreatment that starts down in Altar and goes all the way to Kansas, where they're now the overwhelming majority of workers in the meatpacking industry. The people who are citizens of the world cannot come to our country and be subject to cruel and inhumane treatment.